I have always sympathized with Israel but I know there is much I don’t know so I am reading a history of Israel. I knew an Englishman who served in the Palestinian Police force after the war and as the violence increased and casualties rise, his sympathies were entirely with the Arabs. And I recall my father telling me of four British Army sergeants captured and executed by the Jewish hands agitating for a state, shortly after the war.
My daughter is nominally Christian, her best friend Michael from across the street is nominally Jewish, and my niece is part Egyptian (my sister in law having worked in Saudi as a nurse met an Egyptian doctor ) and nominally Moslem. Frank my Jewish neighbour would drive them to school and the three of them would sing Christmas carols in the back seat.
I would love the CGs to take this on. What is the solution?
A number of years ago I had the pleasure of working with a Tel Aviv based software firm. I worked with two of their (then) young software developers to implement their product for our company, which was based on the west coast of the United States. The one fellow was a Jewish Mystic, following the Kabballah, and carrying around magnetic stones. We'll call him Isaac. The other fellow came from a traditional Jewish home, his father was a Rabbi in Jerusalem, but he consider himself to be an Atheist. Let's call him Caleb.
One day, sitting in Burger King (that's right, Burger King), I sat and listened to Isaac and Caleb debate the Israel v. Palestine situation. Up until then, I'd just gone along with the traditional narrative on Israel: I was a conservative Christian, so I supported Israel. All Palestinians were evil terrorists. I was smart enough at that time to just listen, and ask questions. How could I possibly have any input on the conversation? Isaac wanted all hostilities to cease. He wanted Israelis and Palestinians to co-exist. Caleb said that was a pipe-dream. "You give them the West Bank, and they'll then ask for something else. And then something else. They have one goal: the destruction of Israel." It was a fascinating discussion.
After Caleb and Isaac returned to Israel, we continued to work together. At one point, Caleb stopped communicating with me. I got a bit angry, I mean, what are we paying these people for? After 3 or 4 unanswered emails, I sent something to he and the company owner, saying effectively "What the heck, man?!" Caleb responded "Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, but I will in a couple of days. I will explain later." When he did explain, I learned that Caleb was an officer in the IDF. He had been woken late one night because of some conflict, which saw him away from his job for about a week. He told me that while he was emailing me saying he'd get in touch with me soon, he was actually under fire by Palestinians. I asked him "Caleb, have you ever killed a Palestinian?" See, I'm smart, but I'm not that smart. Caleb's response shocked me: "I certainly hope so." He then explained further. "My wife takes 3 buses from home to her work in the morning. Then 3 buses from work to home in the evening. Busses explode regularly in Tel Aviv. How long until my wife is on one of them? We can't go to movie theaters. We can't go out to dinner. I hate Palestinians only because they hate me, and want me dead, just because I am Jewish." I would remember his words years later, standing in a coffee shop north of Jerusalem. I looked at the young lady who took my shekels and thought "She didn't ask for any of this. She just wants to live her life."
Fast forward then a few years, and I'm sitting in the home of an ethnic Palestinian in Amman. His family run out of Jerusalem when he was a baby, his father a Christian pastor in a small village in Jordan, this man now runs a charitable outreach organization in Amman. He had a different story to tell. "When Americans think of the Holy Land, they think only of Israel. But Jordan is the Holy Land, too." It was from him that I learned the difference between "Palestinian" and "Muslim", terms which I'd come to think of as synonymous in the context of Israel. Here was a man who was an Arab, a Palestinian by birth, and a devout Christian. He believed himself to be from the line of Ishmael. He reminded me of the passage in scripture in which Abraham asked God to bless the children of his union with Hagar. "We are those children. We are your brothers." Quite simply, his view was not any that I'd ever heard before. And it changed my perspective.
On that same trip I met a man in Bethlehem who had, as a teenager, saw his father killed by an IDF sniper. He became an atheist and a hater of Jews on that day. Years later he would become a Christian, and spend a goodly part of his life trying to bring harmony between Jews and Muslims in Israel. He told me "Palestinians only want a nation they can be part of, where they have a passport, and are free to move about the country as others do. We do not have that in Israel today." He told me that many, if not most Palestinians do not want a Palestinian state. They simply want a state. One in which they are free.
I don't really know what the answer is, which is to say that I do not know what the political answer is. I know what the right answer is. That answer is love. The answer is to listen to people tell their stories.
Agreed. Though you have to be careful of the conclusions you draw from this personal interaction. Imagine someone comes over to the United States from Lebanon, who'd never been here before. They sit down with someone whose politics and general outlook on life you disagree with. The person from Lebanon goes home and tells everyone "I know what it is like in America because I spent a few hours with Jim Bob!" You'd say "Well, no." But Jim Bob would say yes.
I found this very well-written and moving, but the conclusion, I think, is simplistic. It was love--for his wife--that made Caleb feel satisfaction in the thought of having killed Palestinians. Love isn't always a beautiful thing. Threats to the people we love make us mad with fury and hatred. I think you would reply that what you meant is not "more love," but "more love for one's enemies," as in Matthew 5:43-48. The belligerents here are not, in the main, Christians, but one needn't be a Christian to agree: If only all parties to this dispute loved their enemies, they wouldn't be enemies. The question, though, is what political circumstances would allow such a love to come into being? It is asking too much of ordinary people to love those who are trying to kill their loved ones--or worse, who have succeeded. If ordinary people could do this, we would all be Christlike, and that we very clearly aren't.
I'm glad you left this comment. Something I cannot abide is the belief that any of this is simple. Understanding that it isn't--and that real people involved, not symbols of good and evil--is a good place to start.
Right I think I probably could have spent more time on the final paragraph. I often ask people (particularly Christians) "What does it mean to love? If I say to my wife 'I love you!' what do I mean?" Most of the time folks sit and think and come up with the normal stuff, none of which is real love, as the Bible defines it. I think that most people when they say "I love you" they really mean "I love the way I feel when I'm around you!" I love my little baby because she is so cute and cuddly. I love my spouse because she makes me feel loved, or she's super hot and sexy, or whatever. This is the sort of love that, while just fine, can be turned to hatred, as you suggest about Caleb.
But the Bible gives us a different definition of love. There's Matthew 5 as you suggest, but to understand that, you have to understand 1 Corinthians: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails." Then of course John 15:13 says that no greater love is there than to lay down your life for another person.
That's the kind of love I am talking about. I can look at another human being and see Christ in them, even if they are not Christians. Because I believe that Christ created them, He loves them. And so should I.
Because the Cosmopolitan Globalists shrink from nothing I would love to see arguments made for different preferred/possible outcomes to this Israel/Palestine thing. Like there were for different sources of energy (nuclear? Renewables?) but for one state, two state, no state, who state, etc.
That would be interesting. I would really love to see some one try and point out the biggest barriers to a two state solution. While I think it's the best option, the factions pushing for one state (on both sides of the fences) will never let it happen.
Something I want to ask is one of the justifications I hear for defining Israel as a jewish ethno nationalist state is that there are many other ethno nationalist states say in Europe(This is excludes the fact that the US in theory has never been an ethno nationalist state) however, in the last few decades all European states by nature of the European Union have become less ethno nationalist. An Eastern Orthodox Greek citizen has almost all of the same right in the very Catholic and ethnically homogenous Republic of Ireland as an Irish Catholic Irish citizen by way of EU membership. Importantly a Greek Orthodox Greek citizen has far more rights in the Republic of Ireland than say a Palestinian whether or not they are an Israeli citizen has in Israel proper.
It seems as if one of Israel's problems is in the North Atlantic world i.e. the US, Canada, and the European Union(and associated states like Switzerland) the traditional ethno nationalist state model of the 19th and 20th centuries that Israel was built around is not really in vogue anymore. Not to say ethno nationalist states still exist in other parts of the world and for that reason Israel has re-oriented it's foreign policy towards those states like Modi's India but it still seems as if Israel has found itself on the wrong side of a historical shift in attitudes towards statehood.
Also I want some Turkish coffee. I have not had any good falafel, shawarma, nor Turkish coffee since I was in Jordan. Well, not true. I found some good Turkish coffee in Pittsburgh once. I'm sorry for the random thoughts. This ain't Facebook.
I was just thinking this morning: "Why isn't there something on The CeeGee about Israel. "The CeeGee" is what the hipsters in downtown Seattle are calling the Cosmopolitan Globalist. At least I assume that to be the case. I rarely go downtown Seattle, and when I do, I steer clear of the hipsters.
Does she have any additional recommended local news sources? I'm often disappointed by the blinders a lot of Israeli news sources can wear, especially if they're trying to play to American audiences.
That probably says a lot more about American eyes than Israeli media, however.
I'll ask her. I thought of this comment just now when I came across this article, titled "Eight Tips for Reading About Israel," which is very sensible and could be extrapolated to any country: https://sapirjournal.org/social-justice/2021/04/eight-tips-for-reading-about-israel/. Look for sources who speak the language, live in the country in question, are not professional activists, who don't provide shocking images absent context, and who take a broad perspective, both regionally and historically. I'll ask our CG folks in the region to draft a specific list for you. It's all but impossible for anyone who lives in the region to be dispassionate--no one is dispassionate when their families' lives are at stake--but there are less and more informative, and useful, ways of being passionate.
I have always sympathized with Israel but I know there is much I don’t know so I am reading a history of Israel. I knew an Englishman who served in the Palestinian Police force after the war and as the violence increased and casualties rise, his sympathies were entirely with the Arabs. And I recall my father telling me of four British Army sergeants captured and executed by the Jewish hands agitating for a state, shortly after the war.
My daughter is nominally Christian, her best friend Michael from across the street is nominally Jewish, and my niece is part Egyptian (my sister in law having worked in Saudi as a nurse met an Egyptian doctor ) and nominally Moslem. Frank my Jewish neighbour would drive them to school and the three of them would sing Christmas carols in the back seat.
I would love the CGs to take this on. What is the solution?
A number of years ago I had the pleasure of working with a Tel Aviv based software firm. I worked with two of their (then) young software developers to implement their product for our company, which was based on the west coast of the United States. The one fellow was a Jewish Mystic, following the Kabballah, and carrying around magnetic stones. We'll call him Isaac. The other fellow came from a traditional Jewish home, his father was a Rabbi in Jerusalem, but he consider himself to be an Atheist. Let's call him Caleb.
One day, sitting in Burger King (that's right, Burger King), I sat and listened to Isaac and Caleb debate the Israel v. Palestine situation. Up until then, I'd just gone along with the traditional narrative on Israel: I was a conservative Christian, so I supported Israel. All Palestinians were evil terrorists. I was smart enough at that time to just listen, and ask questions. How could I possibly have any input on the conversation? Isaac wanted all hostilities to cease. He wanted Israelis and Palestinians to co-exist. Caleb said that was a pipe-dream. "You give them the West Bank, and they'll then ask for something else. And then something else. They have one goal: the destruction of Israel." It was a fascinating discussion.
After Caleb and Isaac returned to Israel, we continued to work together. At one point, Caleb stopped communicating with me. I got a bit angry, I mean, what are we paying these people for? After 3 or 4 unanswered emails, I sent something to he and the company owner, saying effectively "What the heck, man?!" Caleb responded "Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, but I will in a couple of days. I will explain later." When he did explain, I learned that Caleb was an officer in the IDF. He had been woken late one night because of some conflict, which saw him away from his job for about a week. He told me that while he was emailing me saying he'd get in touch with me soon, he was actually under fire by Palestinians. I asked him "Caleb, have you ever killed a Palestinian?" See, I'm smart, but I'm not that smart. Caleb's response shocked me: "I certainly hope so." He then explained further. "My wife takes 3 buses from home to her work in the morning. Then 3 buses from work to home in the evening. Busses explode regularly in Tel Aviv. How long until my wife is on one of them? We can't go to movie theaters. We can't go out to dinner. I hate Palestinians only because they hate me, and want me dead, just because I am Jewish." I would remember his words years later, standing in a coffee shop north of Jerusalem. I looked at the young lady who took my shekels and thought "She didn't ask for any of this. She just wants to live her life."
Fast forward then a few years, and I'm sitting in the home of an ethnic Palestinian in Amman. His family run out of Jerusalem when he was a baby, his father a Christian pastor in a small village in Jordan, this man now runs a charitable outreach organization in Amman. He had a different story to tell. "When Americans think of the Holy Land, they think only of Israel. But Jordan is the Holy Land, too." It was from him that I learned the difference between "Palestinian" and "Muslim", terms which I'd come to think of as synonymous in the context of Israel. Here was a man who was an Arab, a Palestinian by birth, and a devout Christian. He believed himself to be from the line of Ishmael. He reminded me of the passage in scripture in which Abraham asked God to bless the children of his union with Hagar. "We are those children. We are your brothers." Quite simply, his view was not any that I'd ever heard before. And it changed my perspective.
On that same trip I met a man in Bethlehem who had, as a teenager, saw his father killed by an IDF sniper. He became an atheist and a hater of Jews on that day. Years later he would become a Christian, and spend a goodly part of his life trying to bring harmony between Jews and Muslims in Israel. He told me "Palestinians only want a nation they can be part of, where they have a passport, and are free to move about the country as others do. We do not have that in Israel today." He told me that many, if not most Palestinians do not want a Palestinian state. They simply want a state. One in which they are free.
I don't really know what the answer is, which is to say that I do not know what the political answer is. I know what the right answer is. That answer is love. The answer is to listen to people tell their stories.
This is a great guide in how to get a greater perspective on the world by breaking free of a sheltered upbringing. Thank you.
Agreed. Though you have to be careful of the conclusions you draw from this personal interaction. Imagine someone comes over to the United States from Lebanon, who'd never been here before. They sit down with someone whose politics and general outlook on life you disagree with. The person from Lebanon goes home and tells everyone "I know what it is like in America because I spent a few hours with Jim Bob!" You'd say "Well, no." But Jim Bob would say yes.
Life is weird...
I found this very well-written and moving, but the conclusion, I think, is simplistic. It was love--for his wife--that made Caleb feel satisfaction in the thought of having killed Palestinians. Love isn't always a beautiful thing. Threats to the people we love make us mad with fury and hatred. I think you would reply that what you meant is not "more love," but "more love for one's enemies," as in Matthew 5:43-48. The belligerents here are not, in the main, Christians, but one needn't be a Christian to agree: If only all parties to this dispute loved their enemies, they wouldn't be enemies. The question, though, is what political circumstances would allow such a love to come into being? It is asking too much of ordinary people to love those who are trying to kill their loved ones--or worse, who have succeeded. If ordinary people could do this, we would all be Christlike, and that we very clearly aren't.
I'm glad you left this comment. Something I cannot abide is the belief that any of this is simple. Understanding that it isn't--and that real people involved, not symbols of good and evil--is a good place to start.
Right I think I probably could have spent more time on the final paragraph. I often ask people (particularly Christians) "What does it mean to love? If I say to my wife 'I love you!' what do I mean?" Most of the time folks sit and think and come up with the normal stuff, none of which is real love, as the Bible defines it. I think that most people when they say "I love you" they really mean "I love the way I feel when I'm around you!" I love my little baby because she is so cute and cuddly. I love my spouse because she makes me feel loved, or she's super hot and sexy, or whatever. This is the sort of love that, while just fine, can be turned to hatred, as you suggest about Caleb.
But the Bible gives us a different definition of love. There's Matthew 5 as you suggest, but to understand that, you have to understand 1 Corinthians: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails." Then of course John 15:13 says that no greater love is there than to lay down your life for another person.
That's the kind of love I am talking about. I can look at another human being and see Christ in them, even if they are not Christians. Because I believe that Christ created them, He loves them. And so should I.
Because the Cosmopolitan Globalists shrink from nothing I would love to see arguments made for different preferred/possible outcomes to this Israel/Palestine thing. Like there were for different sources of energy (nuclear? Renewables?) but for one state, two state, no state, who state, etc.
That would be interesting. I would really love to see some one try and point out the biggest barriers to a two state solution. While I think it's the best option, the factions pushing for one state (on both sides of the fences) will never let it happen.
It would be a good topic for a symposium, I agree.
Then you can do Northern Ireland. Please.
Tim Smyth1 min ago
Something I want to ask is one of the justifications I hear for defining Israel as a jewish ethno nationalist state is that there are many other ethno nationalist states say in Europe(This is excludes the fact that the US in theory has never been an ethno nationalist state) however, in the last few decades all European states by nature of the European Union have become less ethno nationalist. An Eastern Orthodox Greek citizen has almost all of the same right in the very Catholic and ethnically homogenous Republic of Ireland as an Irish Catholic Irish citizen by way of EU membership. Importantly a Greek Orthodox Greek citizen has far more rights in the Republic of Ireland than say a Palestinian whether or not they are an Israeli citizen has in Israel proper.
It seems as if one of Israel's problems is in the North Atlantic world i.e. the US, Canada, and the European Union(and associated states like Switzerland) the traditional ethno nationalist state model of the 19th and 20th centuries that Israel was built around is not really in vogue anymore. Not to say ethno nationalist states still exist in other parts of the world and for that reason Israel has re-oriented it's foreign policy towards those states like Modi's India but it still seems as if Israel has found itself on the wrong side of a historical shift in attitudes towards statehood.
Also I want some Turkish coffee. I have not had any good falafel, shawarma, nor Turkish coffee since I was in Jordan. Well, not true. I found some good Turkish coffee in Pittsburgh once. I'm sorry for the random thoughts. This ain't Facebook.
I was just thinking this morning: "Why isn't there something on The CeeGee about Israel. "The CeeGee" is what the hipsters in downtown Seattle are calling the Cosmopolitan Globalist. At least I assume that to be the case. I rarely go downtown Seattle, and when I do, I steer clear of the hipsters.
All the time, blaming IT...
Does she have any additional recommended local news sources? I'm often disappointed by the blinders a lot of Israeli news sources can wear, especially if they're trying to play to American audiences.
That probably says a lot more about American eyes than Israeli media, however.
I'll ask her. I thought of this comment just now when I came across this article, titled "Eight Tips for Reading About Israel," which is very sensible and could be extrapolated to any country: https://sapirjournal.org/social-justice/2021/04/eight-tips-for-reading-about-israel/. Look for sources who speak the language, live in the country in question, are not professional activists, who don't provide shocking images absent context, and who take a broad perspective, both regionally and historically. I'll ask our CG folks in the region to draft a specific list for you. It's all but impossible for anyone who lives in the region to be dispassionate--no one is dispassionate when their families' lives are at stake--but there are less and more informative, and useful, ways of being passionate.
The subject of Israel is very Ford v. Chevy in the United States.