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Tim Bentley's avatar

Interesting and useful exchange.

Disclaimer - I'm in the west, and geographically about as far from the current centre of action as it's possible to get.

I think Claire makes the point very well - Putin (and not just Putin, but those who come after him in Russia, and the other dictators around the world) are not going to stop trying to grab for more. Like Poland in 1939, Ukraine has brought that into focus for a lot of us who didn't see it or didn't think about it when it was Chechnya, or Georgia, or Syria.

Liberal Democracy/"the west"/whatever we call it is not perfect - far from it, in many times and places - but it is better than most or all of the alternatives for the people who live in it, and it is objectively better for its citizens than Putin's Russia is for Russians, let alone the hell hole that a Putin-controlled bombed-out Ukraine is going to be for Ukrainians.

The only way to stop the Putins of the world is to stand up to them. That brings risk, but if we are not prepared to risk what we already have to prevent more of the world turning to despotism, maybe we don't deserve what we have, to coin a phrase.

And if the west is going to stand up to Putin, there can be no prevaricating, no wavering or blurring of the lines. Absent an internal revolution within the Russian power structure, or an act of god that takes Putin out of the equation, he has to be forced to blink, or to make good on his bluff.

That's a huge risk, but the alternative is to admit that the western project is done, and shuffle off to enjoy our comfortably decadent lives and wait for the final curtain.

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Ken Snider's avatar

Just to throw in my 2 bits.

I think the invasions of Russia by Napolean and Hitler taught lessons to the old guard Russians now in power that are different from the lessons learned by Europe and the West.

The Russians learned from those experiences, enhanced by the slant on history taught in their schools, that everyone, in particular the Europeans and Americans, want to and will attempt to conquer Russia at the first opportunity.

The West learned from those same invasions that whatever the human and natural resources in Russia, they are not worth the effort it would take to conquer Russia.

The West doesn’t think Russia is worth bothering with. The Russians think that they are so important that everyone wants to attack them.

I think the old school Russians are really annoyed that the West would really prefer to ignore them.

This isn’t everything that’s going on. I also suspect that the steroids, think roid-rage, necessary to keep a 73-year-old that buff may be in play.

It is also true that a dictator’s hold on power is always threatened by prosperous neighbors whose citizens have greater individual liberty than their own people.

Understanding the Russian leaders are irrationally paranoid may help us understand what is going on. It doesn’t mean we should let them have their way.

The Russians concerns about weapons on their borders are real to them, even if they are only imagining those weapons or their purpose. We should understand but not accept their view.

Only when this mindset is out of power will Russia cease to be a source of aggression and war.

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